Zhou Yijun often appears as a guest in talk shows such as Youku's "Round Table Party". As a former war correspondent and later a public figure active in public opinion, she can often express her views from a female perspective, but she believes that Be a better listener. So when Wang Xiaonan, director of Youku Humanities Content Center, and documentary director Ren Changzhen invited Zhou Yijun to do a women's talk show, she was a little unsure at first, "I don't really want to talk. When I was a guest, I was often told, 'I talk too much. not enough'".

Director Ren Changzhen found Zhang Yue, the host of the women's talk show "Half the Sky", to hold a planning meeting and wanted to hear some experience. Zhang Yue gave her very important advice: the topics of conversation should not be limited to things with female labels. This is also in line with Zhou Yijun's positioning of this program.

"First Person Plural" Poster

The origin of the program "First Person Plural"

"First Person Plural" is finally presented to the audience in an atmosphere of free and open conversation. The name of the program doesn't sound easy to understand. Zhou Yijun said frankly that many names were discussed at the beginning, but everyone had different opinions. Later, an editor said that we have various identities on the Internet, but which one is ourselves? That’s where the show’s name comes from, “We don’t necessarily have to give it a meaning.”

After the show aired, Zhou Yijun saw an interpretation on Douban. She liked it very much. Netizens said: We are inclusive like the plural and independent like the first person. Her understanding is, "Our social topic is a plural number, but everyone's expression is in the first person and is their own."

At a time when gender topics have become a hot topic, having mainly female guests is a good talking point, but Zhou Yijun emphasized that "gender is not the standard that defines everything." There are many female guests and female perspectives, but it does not mean that this is a gender-specific show, and she did not prepare the show with gender presets.

"Because we are female directors and planners, we naturally see more women, that's all, instead of saying that we first think about the gender of this person, so we find her."

Stills from "First Person Plural"

Adopting Zhang Yue’s experience, the fact that there are many female guests does not mean that the topics discussed are all socially stereotyped female topics. Zhou Yijun said: "We are not only concerned about women's issues, we care about human nature, the whole universe, technological progress, and aesthetics. What I want to show is that women can care about everything. We do not pursue absolute gender. Equality, but we are equal before the topic. I once said that the best men and women transcend their own gender. The gender here does not refer to biological sex, but to the stereotypes given by society."

Therefore, we will still see male guests on the show. Zhou Yijun does not reject anyone because of his gender. "We did not invite him because he is a man, but he happens to have a very strong voice on this issue and also expresses Very good. We want to see more gender equality." For example, in the first issue on the topic of sexual harassment, Zhou Yijun also invited Lu Xiaoquan, a lawyer who specializes in this type of lawsuits, because he is very knowledgeable about the legal aspect. learn.

"Our program is not gender-biased. Our program welcomes the participation of male guests because the things we discuss are of common concern to everyone and we do not exclude anyone. On the one hand, we hope that everyone will hear more women's opinions. voice, to show the image of women; on the other hand, I want everyone to see that gender is not the standard that defines everything. For me, feminism is not a theory, it is a practice, and you are slow in the process of doing it. Slowly understand the situation you are facing and what you have to do, instead of just labeling it."

“Female guests are more daring to speak out.”

Although I don’t want to have a label, most of the guests are women, who are a minority among current domestic talk shows. Before doing the show, experienced people told Zhou Yijun that generally there will be no more than one female guest on a talk show, or at most two, and at least the ratio should be controlled. After all, in social stereotypes, women seem to have a lot to do. But "First Person Plural" overturns this experience. Even if the guests are all women, they can still have a good conversation and be so open.

"Our program has a way of reopening the guests. Teacher Zhang Yue used to do the program "Half the Sky". She interviewed many women and specialized in female topics. In this program, she has also been reopened and can talk about many other things. matter. "

Zhang Yue

Not only that, Zhou Yijun’s real feeling is that “female guests dare to speak more.”

"You can see that some comments and words can be expressed so directly without so many embellishments. After there are more female guests, everyone will dare to speak more. Because I think women are better able to get closer to the essence. She will put aside many superficial things, such as what Teacher Mao Jian said, she will not give face to anyone, there are not that many things."

This "directness" was evident in the first episode of the program, where the topic was "sexual harassment." In fact, this is not the first episode they have recorded, and the topic is indeed very heavy. When they invited guests, some people did decline due to sensitivity.

Before recording, Zhou Yijun posted on Weibo: What do you want to know about "sexual harassment"? To her surprise, most of the four to five hundred responses she received asked, what is sexual harassment? What exactly is the definition? Where are the boundaries? Is telling dirty jokes sexual harassment? Is touching you sexual harassment? Is complimenting you on your beauty sexual harassment?

"I found that no one knew the definition clearly. When incidents happened again and again, we had to undergo re-education and re-understand this matter. This process is necessary, especially when we also talked about the importance of educating the next generation. Sex education, sometimes this kind of incident will suddenly come to everyone's attention, but in fact it happens all the time, so I think there will be a resonance in it, and it not only happens to women, men will also experience it."

The relatively relaxed "Chat about the Universe" was placed in the third issue

After recording this episode, even though he knew that the topic was "heavy" and sensitive, Zhou Yijun still decided to make this episode the first episode. "After recording the entire episode, I knew that the whole atmosphere was the same as when I recorded 'Whole Universe'." The difference is that I think this matter is really important. Although it may look a bit serious and scare away some viewers, I think this matter is of great merit."

Zhou Yijun first learned about feminism through the inspiration of a French female classmate. However, she did not feel that the theory had much impact on her at that time. She only knew that the problems she faced from childhood to adulthood were not just individual problems, but It is a common problem.

Zhou Yijun also had conversations with Dai Jinhua, chatted with young girls, and was the mother of a girl. When talking about related topics, Zhou Yijun emphasized several times, "Feminism is not a theory to me, but It’s a practice.” With the broadcast of “First Person Plural”, The Paper reporters conducted an exclusive interview with Zhou Yijun, talking about the current hot issues in feminism from the show.

【dialogue】

Once the concept is explained clearly, everyone will feel more at ease.

The Paper: How is the topic of the program determined?

Zhou Yijun: During the preparation process and the topic preparation process, we took a longer view. We have some screening mechanisms, and we have also asked other programs how they prepare. Maybe everyone even has to vote. Later we discovered that we should start more from the things we care about. For example, as a host, I must be interested in this topic and care about it, so that we can generate a topic.

So first I was interested, and secondly the core creative staff thought it was feasible and could find suitable people to talk to. Or conversely, we see a very suitable guest and we extend a topic around this person. For example, in the episode where we talked about animals, Wang Dake wrote a book "Their Sex". I saw on the Internet that she had another speech, so I found her. So overall, it's hard to say that we have a very clear decision-making process.

The Paper: As a female audience, you may want to see an all-female guest lineup. Have you considered this issue before inviting male guests?

Zhou Yijun: In the sexual harassment episode, lawyer Lu Xiaoquan talked a lot. I asked him, what do male friends think of you? You have been championing women’s rights. He said that anyone who has completed self-gender education will be like me. In fact, when true gender education is completed, people will not only use gender to distinguish people. This is an education issue with advanced concepts.

Lu Xiaoquan is one of the few male guests on the show

The Paper: As a host, what procedures will you prepare?

Zhou Yijun: The most important thing is to be familiar with the guests. You need to know what kind of remarks they have made and what direction they may dig into. And different people should speak in different directions, so as to give everyone a more comprehensive feeling.

In fact, it is difficult to invite guests for this issue of sexual harassment, because some people are really reluctant to come after hearing about this topic, and everyone will have concerns. So in the end, I am also very grateful to the guests who came out to speak out. They spoke very well. I think this topic resonates with everyone, but we need to explain it clearly and logically. The professional backgrounds of these guests provide a lot of support.

For example, Teacher Hou Zhiming is a front-line hotline worker for women. She has a lot of first-hand information and knows what it is like to come into contact with these people. Chen Bi is a professor of evidence. She will explain how to obtain evidence from her perspective. Lawyer Lu Xiaoquan specializes in this type of lawsuits and knows the legal aspects very well. So I think these three people coming together to talk about this matter will be more comprehensive and well-founded.

The Paper: What kind of effect do you hope this program will achieve?

Zhou Yijun: As a producer of the program, I think it is difficult for me to predict, but when everyone is unclear about the definition, I hope that this program can clearly answer these questions and tell everyone what the boundaries are and what our gender education needs to be. How can we do this, especially in the workplace, how can we all be more harmonious? It’s not that after watching this show, men think I can’t talk and act randomly. Women’s boundaries are too obvious, and I can’t do anything, or Nothing more can be said. We will also talk about the difference between normal love pursuit and sexual harassment. By clarifying the concept, everyone will feel at ease. I hope to make everyone feel relieved. Only when you understand what it is, can you no longer be afraid of it.

For me, feminism is not a theory, but a practice. In fact, the problems encountered are different for everyone. Take sexual harassment as an example, everyone feels that if you are harassed, you should report it and resist it. , but some women may encounter this problem. She needs to keep her job first, or the authority she faces is too great. We should also be tolerant of this choice, but you have to tell her what it is. Let everyone be aware of this matter, but respect everyone's individual choice. Lawyer Lu Xiaoquan also expressed this view.

We don't like this guy being preachy.

The Paper: In the process of collecting topics, did you pay attention to the problems that women of different ages may encounter in their lives or life experiences?

Zhou Yijun: It is difficult to consider based on different age groups or different genders. Because I think all people of different age groups come from another age group, and there are great differences between individuals, so I think it is difficult for us to really distinguish between the crowd and the audience to discuss. We can only discuss it from our own Let’s talk about this from a different perspective.

Program guest Xiaolu

Of course, I also feel that young girls may be more sensitive to certain things. For example, in the episode about chatting about the universe, there are me, Teacher Zhang Yue, Maojian and Xiaolu. You can see the difference in age. inside. Xiaolu may feel that after being broken up by a scumbag, he should make a fuss and express more emotions. In our generation, we may have been taught to be gentle, courteous and thrifty, and should be more reserved. So I was a little surprised when Xiaolu said it, but I think it's good for them to do this. We were trained too well at that time, and we didn't quite express ourselves like this. In fact, there is no right or wrong, but you can see different opinions presented in it, including what she said about lifting the curtain. Those of us who have lived in collectives will choose a numb mentality, and young people will be very concerned about this matter. Sensitive, so I think this presentation is very good.

The Paper: What difficulties have you encountered from preparation to now?

Zhou Yijun: It’s just that it’s difficult to select people. Our guests don’t have any big-traffic celebrities, and we can’t invite them. And this is not important to us. What we value more is the person’s point of view. I was talking about this with our director yesterday. When we choose a person, if we don’t like this person, it’s preaching, but if we like this person, he has a point of view.

So what’s the difference between preaching and constructive perspective? A preacher may tell you an absolute right and wrong, but a nutritious point of view is to tell you that this matter comes from my experience. I think so, and you may or may not accept it. And the person who really gives a good opinion is sincere and you don't need to say he is right or wrong. But preaching is sometimes not sincere. The person may not be able to do it himself. He just tells you a correct statement, even a particularly mainstream statement. He cares about right and wrong and is consistent with a certain value.

So for our show, we will consider these aspects when selecting guests. We don’t need big stars that everyone is very familiar with. Of course, it’s okay to have them, but if this person really has a good conversation, we care more. What matters most is whether it can come up with some ideas that can inspire and think about the audience.

The Paper: In the past, we saw you mostly as a guest on some well-known talk shows. Will it be difficult after this identity change?

Zhou Yijun: It’s really difficult. When I finished recording the first episode, I couldn't sleep that night and my brain kept spinning. I realized that being a host is very different from being a guest. You have to listen to various people speak and give various reactions. You don’t just care about what you are saying, so the challenge is very big.

What I find most interesting is that I have to play a role in smoothing the flow, and then it will naturally form a conversational atmosphere. Later, I gradually discovered that I also have my own characteristics. What I say is not significantly higher than others, which may make the whole program a bit decentralized, and it is not very clear that I am hosting. And Teacher Zhang Yue gave me a lot of help. After all, she is an experienced host.

The Paper: Women’s topics are a very hot topic now. This program is more interested in female viewers, but are topics like sexual harassment more effective if they fall on male viewers? After all, most of the time women are the victims and men are the actors.

Zhou Yijun: You cannot expect to rely on a single gender to solve social problems. The lawyer said that the solution to the problem of sexual harassment must be a social structural help to truly achieve results. For example, teacher Hou Zhiming mentioned an example where a little girl was molested by her cousin. When the girl told her mother, her mother’s first reaction was to blame her and say you are stupid. You can tell from her mother’s reaction, shouldn’t she? Do women also need to receive such education? My cousin is also a minor.

Sexual harassment is not just a single-gender problem in which women are the victims. It must be a problem for both genders. I hope that after watching this program, everyone of different genders will be relieved and feel that there is a clear boundary for this matter, and it is okay not to cross it. Yet?

I very much hope that there will be male viewers to watch this show. Don’t think that after being labeled as a woman, men will refuse to watch it. I want everyone to see that the topics we talk about are really very broad. There are animals about technology in the back. Of course, women can care about all issues, it is a cognitive program. When editing, the director discovered that the concepts in the program were quite advanced and had a refreshing style.

Independent women have ten thousand looks

The Paper: For every girl, do you think there will be any concrete changes in life if you understand feminism or if you don’t understand it at all?

Zhou Yijun: The first Douban comment on the book "Patriarchy and Capitalism" is very accurate, saying that reading this book feels like a 19th century worker reading "Das Kapital". What I want to say is that theory will give you a kind of support and a psychological basis. You will know that many things are not your individual fault. For things like sexual harassment, many people's first reaction may be my fault. Did I dress too revealingly? Did I give some hints to others that were misunderstood? But when you understand these knowledge and theories, you will find that it is not your fault. In the end, perhaps our biggest problem is that many times, women internalize some concepts of patriarchy and think that because I am a woman, I should be like this or that. Then you need a theory to ignite it and tell you that there are other possibilities. .

Screenshot of "First Person Plural" program

The Paper: You just mentioned Douban. There are also many discussions about feminism on Douban. Will you pay attention to the topics discussed by these young girls online? Will you feel the changing development trend?

Zhou Yijun: The last time I talked with teacher Dai Jinhua, she said that she didn’t even dare to talk because everyone would have many different opinions. You see, the recent news reports are about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. In the past two days, there have been "fights" under the comments on my social media account. It obviously seems that this place is far away from us, right? But I am someone who has actually worked there, spent time with them day and night, and I will tell you that I will not get into this kind of "fight." Because the more you see and know, the harder it is to form a black-and-white view. This experience can be applied to many things. Sometimes I will be very tolerant of other people's opinions. I am more concerned about how you formed this opinion than knowing what you think. When people can care about how people who disagree with you form their opinions, they will no longer be so obsessed with who is right and who is wrong.

In fact, I don’t think there are such clear so-called stages of development. I re-read Woolf’s book before, and I re-summarized it and added some of my own opinions. I proposed three things. One is economic independence. We have gone too far to achieve financial freedom, but economic independence is possible. The second is intellectual freedom. In terms of cognition, you can reach any height that men can reach. There is no saying that this topic can only be discussed by men. The third thing is called gender freedom. It is impossible to achieve gender freedom because biological sex does have limitations that are insurmountable. Sometimes I joke that gender can only truly achieve freedom unless men can have children one day. But we can I have a better understanding of gender, I am comfortable with my own gender, I don’t feel awkward about this gender, I don’t set limits for myself, and I tell others not to set limits for me.

For me, the biggest impact of Chizuru Ueno's book is that she shows a lot of things. The people she talks to are of different ages and have different statuses and professions. You will see that they all live so wonderfully and can put everything into perspective. My past experiences were so profoundly exposed. For example, there was a girl who was in a forced-dating relationship and later became a sociologist. I think this is the sincerity that women can do. She is not ashamed of her past experiences at all. Instead, she tells you that because of my experience, I understand what gender is. look. Women are more able to reveal themselves. There is also "Amenorrhoea" written by Hiromi Ito, which talks about the experience of amenorrhea of a woman in her 50s. How could such a topic have been discussed before, and it was printed and discussed in black and white. More and more writing is being spread, and my experiences reflect more and more progress, not just slogans.

"Amenorrhea"

The Paper: But I also find that online discussions can easily lead to blaming women, such as the term "beautiful wife". Previously, there was a chat between up owner Quan Hexi and Ueno Chizuruko, and they were scolded very much. What do you think of this conflict between individual women and individuals?

Zhou Yijun: This is inevitable in the Internet age. There are conflicts not only between women, but also on all issues as long as they can be labeled. I watched their conversation, and I'm quite grateful that she brought this voice. In fact, I feel that no matter what she talked about, this interview really opened up a lot of discussions on this issue in China, and I'm very grateful. They started the discussion. As for her opinion, everyone can have an opinion, and I think she was brave enough to put her own experience into it. Of course, this is just my point of view, and I will not attack others, but it is indeed a pity in the Internet age that cyber violence is inevitable.

I feel that we don’t say too much, but too little. We say too few things that really touch the essence.

The Paper: Do you think feminism has thresholds and requirements? In Quan Hexi’s latest response video, he talked about being expelled from feminism. I think this feeling is also the feeling of many married women, or some women, when talking about this topic.

Zhou Yijun: So do you have to take an oath? I don’t think she was expelled from feminism. She may have felt that she was expelled from a certain camp, which was a feeling of not being understood. I think feminism is inherently diverse. Can you tell me what feminism is in one sentence? cannot. The process of a female individual's growth is itself feminist. Teacher Zhang Yue said that independent women have ten thousand looks. There are no rules and regulations, and it has nothing to do with whether you get married or not.

The Paper: You have your own daughter. What kind of feminist education will you incorporate into your daughter’s education?

Zhou Yijun: I think it’s more about letting her see what I do. What’s surprising to me is that she is much more advanced than me in terms of feminism. I myself realize some things only after growing up. It’s okay, she is only 11 years old now, but she has a very strong desire for equality and progress in this area. For example, her school has a boys’ football team but not a girls’ football team. When she saw that there was a women’s football team in the World Cup, she said she would launch an initiative. She will have a very clear point of view when it comes to the women's football team. This is really not what I taught her. I think it is more of a subtle influence. What I tell her now is not to belittle men...we are equal.

The Paper: Just like the worry of “don’t belittle men”, some people now feel that it’s not right to lead all topics to gender issues.

Zhou Yijun: I think the question that should be asked is why all the questions are finally led to gender issues, because gender is the most visible. Any differences between you and me may not be caused by gender, but may be because of gender. Being a woman is the most visible thing, the easiest thing to see. In the end, because I am a man, this is the weakest reply. It is possible that this person said this because of his experience as a man when he was growing up. , tell him what it is and how it should be done. The results will be different if you truly experience and educate yourself and if others tell you.